Duane Street and Man of Grief

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Duane Street and Man of Grief

Haruo
I'm wondering about the tune given in the 1985 LDS hymnal for "A Poor, Wayfaring Man of Grief". According to the tune name list at the back of that collection, the tune is Duane Street by George Coles. But the tune is quite different from what the CyberHymnal calls Duane Street. The CyberHymnal gives the same tune the 1985 LDS book has, and says it is by Coles, but calls it Man of Grief. The CyberHymnal also gives three alternative tunes, Sagina, St. Crispin and Sweet Hour. It does not list Duane Street for this text, but as far as I can see it could be used for it. So I guess what I'm looking for is clarification on whether CyberHymnal or LDS 1985 is the better authority on what tune is properly called Duane Street. Anybody want to hazard an opinion?

Haruo

PS Liking this hymn is one of the things I have in common with Joseph Smith, Jr. ;-)
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Re: Duane Street and Man of Grief

Shule
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I've actually looked this up and thought a similar thing, believe it or not (though it's been a while since I've thought about it).

Huh, I just listened to Duane Street again.  Yeah - I'd agree that it's a completely different tune.  In fact, it seems like a slightly different version of a tune used in another LDS hymnal (unofficial though it may be).
See this hymn article:
http://www.hymnwiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Jesus_and_Shall_It_Ever_Be
Here's the midi link:
http://www.hymnwiki.org/wiki/images/a/a3/007_Jesus_and_shall_it_ever_be.mid

Would you agree that this is also Duane Street?

I would tend to think that the Cyberhymnal is correct with this one; I believe I saw Duane Street listed with this tune at another place, when I first looked it up.

Also, I've been wondering why they name the tune for Praise to the Man Martyr instead of Scotland the Brave.  Maybe Martyr is the arrangement name instead (that's my guess).  I've noticed that they don't always note when something is an arrangement in LDS hymnals to date - particularly with things like who wrote the parts to the song (probably for the sake of saving paper), and editorial content probably done by the church music committee.  I wonder if God Be with You till We Meet Again is one such, as it differs slightly from the Cyberhymnal.  The LDS hymnals aren't the only ones like this, though - lots of other hymnals are, too, it seems.  What Wondrous Love Is This appears to have an arrangement written by an unknown hand, which arrangement is often cited seemingly as being how it was originally (which was really quite different: in William Walker's Southern Harmony, 1835).  Anyway, I like to avoid putting sheet music for such hymns on HymnWiki, myself, for the possibility that they might be copyrighted today (though I doubt the arrangers themselves know or care, seeing as their names were not even mentioned).

It seems there's a lot of history steeped into the current LDS hymnal, and that could account for some irregularities like this (sometimes error can become tradition - especially when there's only one tradition involved).  But, I guess they might still be correct.  More research is still in order.

Here are some other websites that call the tune not in the LDS hymnal Duane Street:
http://www.ccel.org/cceh/0008/x000817.htm
http://reformingworship.org/main/scriptures/scottishpsalter/tunes.php

This link you may find particularly interesting (it has a tune it calls Duane Street paired with A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief):
http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/049.jpg
This appears to be the Duane Street in the Cyberhymnal with an extra clef.
Here's the website that's from: http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/HesperianHarp.htm

I tend to think that they just put the wrong name there.  I mean, Duane Street was apparently used with A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, and both tunes were written by George Coles (it could have been an easy mistake, with both tunes being used for the same song, written by the same person).

If you ever find another source that calls the one in the LDS hymnal Duane Street, that could raise more questions.  Those who made the LDS hymnal might not be the ones who made the original mistake, if it was a mistake.

Another link I know talks about Duane Street with a Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, but it doesn't have the music.  The description, however, I think lends more toward the tune in the LDS hymnal:
". . . but its movement is full of life and emphasis, and its melody is contagious."
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18444/18444-h/18444-h.htm
Well, I could be wrong about the life and emphasis part, but I definitely think the LDS hymnal one is more likely to be called contagious.  I guess the other one is simpler, and perhaps easier to learn, though.

This website makes some claims on this issue, but it doesn't say how it knows, exactly, although it does cite the Cyberhymnal a little:
http://www.fiddle-sticks.com/Liner_Nauvoo.htm


Anyway, whatever the case, both tunes are associated with this hymn - so, at least I can leave Duane Street on the HymnWiki article.  If you can find another name for this tune, that would be another key.  For now, I think it would be safe to stay with what the Cyberhymnal says - until further evidence can be obtained.
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Re: Duane Street and Man of Grief

Shule
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In reply to this post by Haruo
I've come across an interesting bit of new information regarding the tune which the Cyberhymnal calls Man of Grief.

I've discovered that the Latter-day Saints Psalmody, 1889 (actually, I only know for sure that the 1908 fourth edition, 1908, has it) has this tune paired with "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief", but it lists the tune name as Hyrum.  This is quite interesting.  The Cyberhymnal doesn't have a date of publication for this tune.  So . . . it seems 'possible' that George Coles didn't write it at all, and that it was a Latter-day Saint composition (albeit anonymous) which took place after the death of Joseph Smith.  Hyrum (Joseph's brother) was known for requesting that John Taylor sing "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" (to a tune unknown) a couple times not long at all before Hyrum and Joseph were murdered.

There is a bit of evidence refuting this hypothesis, however (other than the Cyberhymnal's claim regarding the name and composer).  That is that there was neither a composer nor a lyricist mentioned.  Normally, in this book, they had both.  Since they didn't know the lyricist (and the composer, for that matter), it seems likely that they also did not know the tune name.  This book was designed such that most of the songs were listed by their tune names: therefore, it is possible that they just made up the name Hyrum for convenience's sake (and perhaps to honor him).

Whatever the case, we have a public domain publication date (I believe there are a couple other public domain Latter-day Saint hymnals with it after this, too: Songs of Zion, and maybe Deseret Sunday School Songs).

Whatever the case, though, it still seem coincidental that two tunes by the same composer would be paired with the same song.  Anyway, this tune still seems rather mysterious.  I bet some old hymnals and books about hymns from Google Books could shed some light on the subject.

It is also possible that George Coles did compose a tune named Man of Grief and that it was a different tune than this (although I consider this unlikely; if he wrote a tune with that name, it's probably this tune).
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The Cyberhymnal's sources

Shule
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I checked the Cyberhymnal's sources (they're both on Google Books), and they say nothing of a tune called Man of Grief—one, however, talks about Duane Street.

Duane Street is the only tune mentioned that George Coles wrote (in those two sources).

I've emailed the Cyberhymnal about the issue; hopefully, they'll respond and tell me where the name "Man of Grief" and the association with George Coles came from.
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Re: Duane Street and Man of Grief

Shule
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In reply to this post by Haruo
Page 249 of this book states that the tune which John Taylor sung, before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, was plaintive (expressing sorrow).  The tune most associated with the name Duane Street does not seem very plaintive to me, and the tune associated with Man of Grief seems quite so.

Another source says it was as appropriate for the occasion as Mozart's Dead March.

Anyway, this makes it seem less likely that it was written in the Latter-day Saint community, as it was newly introduced at the time (unless it was only introduced because someone made the tune for it).

The lyrics for "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief", however, have been verified as being written by James Montgomery (time and again).
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LDS confusion with Duane Street and Man of Grief

Shule
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In reply to this post by Haruo
This article of this book seems to let us know how this confusion got started.

They hadn't heard the tune Duane Street, apparently, and so some may have supposed it was the same.  This also indicates that the tune used in LDS hymnals now (Man of Grief / Hyrum) was the same one John Taylor used.  So . . . the tune has been around since at least 1844.

'I' suppose that this is how George Coles came to be associated with the tune Man of Grief, as well, but I could be wrong.  I personally doubt that he wrote it.  I think it's more likely a Scottish folk song that James Montgomery associated with his text (or even a tune he wrote himself, though I consider my previous statement more likely).
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Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Shule
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We finally have some evidence about this tune.

It appears that Ebenezer Beesley composed it, loosely basing it on yet another tune. The original tune has been lost until this year, it seems. I'm not quite sure where the original tune came from. I speculate that John Taylor might have sung his own arrangement of something he knew.

I see no evidence that George Coles had a thing to do with the tune. However, the sample PDF of the old tune still mentions George Coles (although I figure they put that down for the sake of tradition and not based on anything new they found).

See this article that Horndude put up:
http://mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/church_history/?id=4102
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Donovan Walker
Ok. I've actually made this a major matter of research. Here's what I've got:

Montgomery wrote 'The Stranger and His Friend" as a poem.  Coles wrote DUANE STREET as a setting for the Methodist adaptation of this poem (it removes mentions of "Negro's Pew" and "Black and White", etc.)

This form of the tune is rather formal. A more lyric, minstrel version found its way to John Taylor's ear while on mission in England. He still found it rather plain, and further embellished it with his own tune, the one mentioned here as having been recently recovered from E. Beesley's sketchbook. This unnamed tune is likely the closest we have to what John Taylor sang in the Carthage Jail.

E. Beesley composed HYRUM from it, and named it for Hyrum Smith. This version having caught on amoung some non LDS, the tune named MAN OF GRIEF is the same tune (much like WANDERER is the same tune as DUANE STREET as used by non Methodists).

So, MAN OF GRIEF is by E. Beesley not G. Coles, and is not DUANE STREET. There are a lot of hymns that use DUANE STREET, but none of them appear in the 1985 Hymnal, and the tune used for "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" is HYRUM or MAN OF GRIEF, *not* DUANE STREET.

Oh, and "Jesus or Shall it Ever Be" from the 1844 Hymnal is unmistakably DUANE STREET.
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Brett
I'm sorry for reviving a thread that is long dead, but I recently came across this discussion, and couldn't just sit by while misinformation gets spread around. Although the two tunes sound nothing alike, if you compare sheet music of the George Cole tune DUANE STREET with the tune that appears in the current LDS hymnal, it becomes easier to see that the tune in the LDS hymnal is clearly related to George Cole's tune. Need further proof? Look at this version of DUANE STREET, from the “Franklin Square song collection” (1885):

http://books.google.com/books?id=XKgQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22man+of+grief%22+intitle:hymns&hl=en&ei=ZJUyTaSUL4SosQOhu4y5BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22man%20of%20grief%22%20intitle%3Ahymns&f=false

Print out this page, if necessary, then open the current hymnal, and on this sheet of paper fill in all the additional embellished eight and sixteenth notes with a pencil, and then play it on a piano. Although the tune isn't exact, it is similar enough it get the point across. In every single measure the two tunes share at least one note in common, and measures 4 & 5 are almost identical.

It is NOT a brand new tune, as some have suggested, rather, a very elaborate variation of Cole's DUANE STREET. Beesley himself admits this. It is published (in almost exact form as found in the current hymnal) in the “Improvement Association Song Book” (1883), published by Beesley:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tTZOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA23&dq=music+%22poor+wayfaring%22+inauthor:ebenezer+inauthor:beesley&hl=en&ei=ZZoyTZ2lK5P2tgOyrvXnBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note that Beesley does not take credit for writing the music. It clearly states “Arranged by E. Beesley.” He also notes (on page 23) that John Taylor sang the hymn “to the tune here set to it.”  I would love to know if the tune found in Beesley's sketchbook matches this one. Has anyone seen it? Is it viewable online?

Yes, Beesley's arrangement is called HYRUM in the “Psalmody,”and from there the name passed down into the current hymnal. It could be that Beesley did not know the original name of the tune and so he chose an appropriate name for it for inclusion in the Psalmody, and this would be especially true if he learned the tune from Taylor, rather than borrowing it from a hymnal. Or possibly he called his arrangement HYRUM to distinguish it from Cole's original. In any case, it IS at least based on George Cole's tune. (If you think these tunes are different, try comparing PROSPECT OF HEAVEN, the tune used for “Adam-ondi-Ahman,” to that found in “Southern Harmony” - the supposed “source” for the tune - they are even more dissimilar than this).

I'm not aware of any other denomination borrowing the LDS arrangement of this tune. If so, I would love to know which denomination and what books it can be found in. Cyberhymnal, although helpful, is not always the most reliable source.

Also, Donovan, I'm not sure what you mean when you state that “Coles wrote DUANE STREET as a setting for the Methodist adaptation of this poem (it removes mentions of "Negro's Pew" and "Black and White", etc.” Montgomery's original poem does not contain either of these phrases, and is almost identical to that found in the current LDS hymnal with a few minor word changes (“Whither he went” rather than “Whereto he went,” etc).



 
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Shule
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This post was updated on .
Brett wrote
I'm sorry for reviving a thread that is long dead, …
Please, feel free to revive as many dead threads as you like.

Brett wrote
… but I recently came across this discussion, and couldn't just sit by while misinformation gets spread around.
On the evidence you gave, I would not at all say that what has been given is definitely misinformation. Let me explain why:

We've already alluded (in one of the links) to the fact that Beesley was not the original author, but that he arranged it from another tune; and it's stated directly in the HymnWiki article. However, Beesley never admitted that George Coles had anything to do with it. We do supposedly have something very much like the original melody and it doesn't sound like Duane Street (doesn't quite sound like the version we have now, either, but closer to it than Duane Street). Sounds to me like it originated from a folk song rather than a hymn, but that's just what my ears tell me (though I do listen to a lot of Celtic traditional music and other sorts of traditional music). Also Beesley's arrangement sounds a lot more folk-style than 'Duane Street'. It would surprise me if Beesley decided to make anything seem more folk-style than it used to be. He seems the type who would do the opposite. However, if the tune Beesley arranged it from was already an arrangement, that complicates things further. We'd need a lot more research to determine anything there.

I tend to think the similarities in Coles' tune and the one arranged by Beesley are merely due to matching poetic meters and being designed for the same text (the text does shape a melody somewhat, if it's designed for it). Although related songs are often quite different, unrelated songs of the same meter often have a lot of similarities, even when they're not related (although this is especially true when the author of the newer tune was familiar with the first tune in association with the same text used for the next tune, which very likely may have been the case with Beesley: so, it's highly possible that the arranged tune has been influenced by, but not necessarily based upon, Coles' tune, although we have no conclusive evidence to suggest this as a fact: a likelihood, yes, but a fact, no). I do, however, need to examine Coles' tune with what you said in mind. I didn't do that before writing this out. Can you post up a melody version of it, or write out the notes for the melody (maybe in LilyPond fashion)? Sometimes it's hard to envision what people are explaining in words musically. I've tried what it looks like you're suggesting before and it still seemed to bear no real semblance to Beesley's arrangement, except maybe a general  partial similarity of rise and falls (which does not make it undebatably related). You might have meant something different, though, and I'd like to hear about it if so.

Anyway, here's a link to an arrangement that is supposed to be like the original melody (I wish they'd just give us the unarranged original thing):

Hmm, they used to have it up online, but it looks like they took it down. Let me see if I can find another link, or my personal copy of it. Ah, I found it (in a cached copy of some random page):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8i1i9sF-3iUJ:www.scribd.com/doc/17054730/Original-Poor-Wayfaring-Man-had-different-tune+original+poor+wayfaring+man+of+grief&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Be sure to look at it soon, or they might take it down. It's supposed to be very similar to the original—so I doubt there was too much embellishment in the melody itself (but again, I can't state that as fact, because they never told us the needed specifics).
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Shule
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Also, you might note that the melody of Beesley's arrangement has a significant portion that sounds exactly like a portion of the tune called 'Hyfrydol', except that it's in another key. It seems to me like he likely used a lot of things for inspiration on this, whether or not he did it consciously (the supposed original tune seems to bare little semblance to 'Hyfrydol', however).

Here, let me post up a MIDI medley of 'Man of Grief' (AKA 'Hyrum') and 'Hyfrydol' that uses this similarity to demonstrate:
29_172.mid
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Brett
Thank you for posting the link to the original tune! After viewing your link I did a little search and was able to find a better copy:

http://losthymnsproject.com/14_Texts/APoorWayfaringMan.pdf

It seems very similar to the the later arrangement, but I don't have a piano right now to know how it sounds. Thanks for also pointing out the similarity between the tunes for “A poor wayfaring man” and the tune HYFRYDOL (in the current hymnal sung to the words “In Humility, Our Savior”).  I had never noticed that before.

The difference in this case, however, is that not only do the two share melodic similarities, but they share the EXACT same chord progression as well. For example, play DUANE STREET without the melody, while singing the melody to Beesley's tune. It fits perfectly. This wouldn't work if the chords weren't the same. It might help you see the similarities. Or maybe even try doing this with another hymn of the same meter, as well. It might help you understand what I am trying to say.

I'm not sure how LilyPond works, but try this first (before posting) and then let me know what you think. I don't know how to explain this a better way.
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Re: Who wrote Man of Grief / Hyrum?

Shule
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You're welcome. I didn't realize they had that up on losthymnproject.com. Thanks for the link.

Don't worry, I know what you mean by saying that they have the same chord progression. I just thought there was some ambiguity with your first message about filling in the notes and what that meant. That's very interesting. Thanks for your posts. I'll have to check that out some time and maybe try out some things with it.

Hmm. Have you ever considered the possibility that 'Duane Street' might rather be influenced by this tune than the reverse? It is a possibility, although I'm not saying it's my opinion. The same chord progression could just be a huge coincidence, too (stranger things have happened)—although it would be best to do some more research and find out something for sure, if we can, I think. If we don't find more information, I hesitate to make any claims as fact regarding the matter, no matter how many similarities the tunes have. The resemblances are certainly noteworthy, however—but it's still not safe to say that any particular person is definitely the author of the tune (the arrangement, sure, but not the tune, yet). There are other hymn tunes out there that share obvious relations, but I have yet to see proof that they're related (nor any claim that they are); it doesn't seem good practice in hymnology to do such without a source to back it up (although it is fair practice to mention possibilities, I think). Unfortunately, I don't remember which hymns those were offhand. Hmm. I guess 'Paderborn' and 'Lyons' are kind of like that, but I don't think they're the ones I had on mind. There are others with equal and much greater similarities. I don't think hymn composers back in the day were too particular about copyrights (or if they were, people must have been sued a lot, or something). In fact, from what I understand, borrowing material was more stylish eons ago (although possibly more eons ago than the time I'm referencing; I know they seemed to be a lot more particular by at least some time around 1885, though). I wouldn't doubt if Beesley purposefully put in the same chord progression as 'Duane Street' even if the original melodies of both songs were completely independent.

Seeing as the original tune that we both put up links for says it's arranged by some modern guy, I'm guessing the chords may be different from the original (and that they were probably designed to be more attuned to a modern audience—perhaps even one that is familiar with Beesley's version). I'd love to get a look at the original unarranged version (which might have been only a melody, for all we know). I wonder what it would take to get them to show it to us, or to post up a scanned copy. Think if we offered them money they'd do it? We should start a fund raiser. :)
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