I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

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I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Mike F. (ski_phreak)
Hey y'all,

I've been gratefully using this site for almost a year now without signing up or contributing.  I've just done the former and would like to do some of the latter.

Specifically, I'd like to contribute PDF/Lilypond from the most recent Latter-Day Saint hymnbook (1985).  Since I haven't contributed to ANY wikis till now, I would appreciate some helpful tips on making edits to the pages...particularly the sheetmusic section.

Yes, I know that the lds.org website has a wonderful flash-based website that can transpose and play midi and more.  So why bother?

Several reasons:  1) I'm already typsetting these so I can play these hymns in viola clef.  2) I like the ability to transpose to a more friendly key for a men's arrangement, or a higher soprano, or whatever. 3) B-flat and F and A instruments won't need to transpose if I've got it already typset in Lilypond.  And finally, 4) the printing features at lds.org are quite bad.  My eyes ain't as great as they used to be and I'd like to print it in sizes ranging from pocket hymnal to "blind-as-a-diabetic-bat."  (Poorly managed diabetes, of course.  No offense to all-y'all diabetics that work so hard to battle this disease the right way.)

Anyway, I see sheetmusic from the 1800's hymnbooks a lot here.  I'm curious why there isn't anything typeset in Lilypond for the 1985 book?  How can I put my source and PDFs alongside the older versions?
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
Wow. It's always great to hear about people using the site. Thanks.

The reason I don't have anything typeset directly from the 1985 hymnal is to be on the safe side with copyright. Some of the songs are copyrighted. Some are exact replicas of public domain printings. Some have copyrighted arrangements of public domain printings. Many have minor differences, but are otherwise like the public domain versions. Some have moderate changes. It's debatable whether some of those changes are severe enough to be copyrightable, perhaps—so this is where I like to be on the safe side.

On the other hand, I like to source all my materials, and it looks weird if the source book itself is not public domain (even if the material itself is; it just looks suspicious, is all). So, if I want to do sheet music on a song from the 1985 hymnal, I usually look for a printing of that song from a public domain hymnal. For some reason, I think older sources are better in the way of research. Many new sources have mistakes on the composer and lyricist information.

Anyway, I have another reason I haven't been doing sheet music from the 1985 hymnal. They actually already have PDF sheet music. It's not done in LilyPond, unfortunately, but it does exist (though I do admit it's a little under-advertised). It even includes the copyrighted songs that they don't have Flash music for:
http://lds.org/cm/pdf/Hymns_1-341_OneFile_pdf.zip

I like these PDF files since they're actually conveniently downloadable and we don't have to worry about compatibility issues with Flash version 52 ten years from now.

There are similar files for the Children's Songbook:
http://lds.org/cm/pdf/ChildrensSngbk_Pages1-299_pdf_eng.zip

Now, having said all that, if you still want to do your versions, you certainly may, as long as you don't break any copyright laws. Just know that you're responsible for whatever you upload, and do source where you got it from directly. I mean, if you used the 1985 hymnal, use that as the source. Some people try to get away with copying it from a new book and putting down an older book with the same song as the source.

I have another reason, too. I just like old hymns. It's one of my goals to preserve them. I don't think the hymns of the 1985 hymnal run the risk of becoming lost anytime soon—but maybe some obscure song from the Deseret Sunday School Song Book (not to be confused with Deseret Sunday School Songs) does. Actually, the hymns I'm most concerned about are those of the public domain, LDS, foreign hymnals. I'm concerned about a lot of the old copyrighted LDS foreign hymnals, too, but most of them have copyrighted translations that I'm not allowed to put online (without permission) for several more years yet. I wish it were easier to get permission for stuff like that, and faster, too.

Maybe we can meet on some kind of chat to discuss how to do the wiki stuff in more depth. Here are a few things to know:
• If you surround text in equals signs, that will make it a heading:
=Heading 1=
==sub-heading==
===sub-sub-heading 3==
• To create bullets, use *. To create sub-bullets use **.

Let's take a look at an example—'The Gushing Rill', for instance:
=Sheet Music=
==Transcribed from [http://books.google.com/books?id=V-qACTxRpGYC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q=&f=false Deseret Sunday School Songs, 1909 (no. 43)]==
*[[media:The Gushing Rill.pdf|PDF (A♭)]]
**[[media:The Gushing Rill G.pdf|Version in G]]
*[[media:The Gushing Rill.mid|MIDI (A♭)]]
**[[media:The Gushing Rill G.mid|Version in G]]
*[[media:The Gushing Rill.ly|LilyPond]]
*Copyright: [[Public Domain]]
*Contributor: ~~~~

See the headings and sub-headings there. To add some new sheet music, make a new sub-heading below all that.

I have to go. Look over that for now, ask questions, and we can confer in the near future.

Thanks, again!
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Mike F. (ski_phreak)
Thanks for your reply and guidance.

I wasn't aware of the PDF sources.  That remedies my printing gripes and might be a far better way to get the hymns on my PDA (with notes too, not just lyrics) if I can afford the  2.5M of space.

However, I still want to be able to print these in viola clef or for instruments that may or may note be C-instruments (oboe, clarinet, bassoon, any horn I can think of....)

I will experiment with editing the pages and uploading some of my Lilyponds (if the copyright agrees.)  Thanks for the pointers.  I hope that my learning curve won't cause you extra work fixing up after me.

Your preference of the older hymnals rings a chord with me.  I prefer the old brown hymnal (1954) or the blue one before it as well...mostly because the voicing is more true to actual "soprano" and "tenor."  I'm not sure what guided the decision process--ease of accompaniment?  Lowest-common-denominator so the melody isn't too high for anybody?  Whatever the consideration was, I don't care much for some (most) of the new keys and arrangements.  I love the new hymns, yes, but I also miss some of the old ones that didn't make the cut.

This makes me wonder how difficult it might be to generate multiple versions from the same source.  Waddaya think?

Currently my files are arranged so:

notes.lyi:  all vocal and piano parts, header & copyright info.
sopMusic soprano (melody) line
altoMusic
tenorMusic
BassMusic
(so far I haven't typeset any of the hymns with an accompaniment that differs from the vocal parts.)

lyrics.lyi:  All lyrics of all verses.

score_SATB.ly:  All parts, typeset as near to the 1985 hymn as I can manage
\include "notes.lyi"
\include "lyrics.lyi"

violins.ly:  all 4 parts printed in treble clef, transposed up/down to fit a violins range
\include "notes.lyi"

violas.ly:   all 4 parts printed in alto clef, transposed up/down to fit a viola range
\include "notes.lyi"

celloBass.ly:   all 4 parts printed in bass clef, transposed up/down to fit a string bass range
\include "notes.lyi"

score.ly:   all 4 parts printed as a score for violin 1, 2,  viola and cello/bass
\include "notes.lyi"

(none of the string music prints the lyrics...yet.  I may change that.)


An alternate lyric file would easily handle variations of the words (or even other languages)
I'm not sure what the best approach would be to alternate notes.  Maybe some commented lines for the other arrangements and/or transposed keys?  I'm not opposed to bringing the lyrics into the notes.lyi file, but I think for the orchestra parts, I want to keep the score, score_SATB and each instrument's .ly file separate from the notes.

Any suggestions?

If you want to poke around in some of my Lilypond source before I start uploading, let me know and I'll mail you off-list.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
Cool. Are you writing your own instrumental arrangements, or doing up some pre-made ones? I don't have much experience using LilyPond for multi-part instrumental music. I've mostly just used it for choral music, hymns, melodies and lead sheets. I've never tried having the lyrics in a separate file, although that sounds like it could be handy once in a while. About generating multiple versions, do you mean multiple arrangements or multiple keys? It's easy enough to transpose a song in LilyPond. There's a commented out portion for that in the hymn template. For multiple arrangements, did you want it to make multiple PDF files from one source file? Or did you want to have multiple sources in one ly file, but still have it only make one PDF file? I've done that before with LilyPond Book, but it's been a while. You can email me at [hidden email]. If it won't let you attach a file, just send an email to it and I'll reply so you can then. I might make some edits to articles you add, but don't worry about it much. It doesn't really bother me. Thanks!
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Mike F. (ski_phreak)
Good to hear back from you.  I've been off-line a lot this week, trying to get ready for Mother's Day and a family BBQ today.  

The "multiple editions" idea came to me when you mentioned the older hymn arrangements and I got thinking about the things I like so well from the "brown" and "blue" hymnbooks.  (Not to mention all the other Protestant, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist....<insert favourite brand of Christianity here> hymns.)

Rather than generate a different PDF for each arrangement, I think it makes more sense to just comment out alternate arrangements (voices) in much the same way your template does.

For example, there would be a sopMusic = { } for the 1985 edition, another commented-out sopMusic for 1958 and on back to the Emma Smith original where applicable.  Ditto with altoMusic tenorMusic and bassMusic.

I haven't spent much time fiddling with (terrible pun, sorry) new arrangements of the hymns.  A few, yes.  Mostly I just typeset them as is from 1985 Hymns and just use the same notes to print everything in treble, alto, or bass clef depending on the instrument (with octave transposition as necessary.)  The same source ("notes.lyi") is included in "violas.ly" "violins.ly" "celloBass.ly" "score.ly" and "score_SATB.ly".  (The notes and lyrics have ".lyi" so that Lilypond doesn't try to compile them when I run "lilypond *.ly" for all files in a given directory.)

For example, here's my "violas.ly" file in its entirety:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%          Nearer, My God, to Thee         %%
%%              viola parts                 %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

\version "2.10.33"

\include "notes.lyi"

% #(set-global-staff-size 18)

\score {
        \relative <<
                \context Staff = violinOne <<
                \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Soprano "
                \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = #"Sop "
                        \context Voice = violinOne \clef alto \sopMusic
                >>

                \context Staff = violinTwo <<
                \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Alto "
                \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = #"Alt "
                        \context Voice = violinTwo \clef alto \altoMusic
                >>

                \context Staff = viola <<
                \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Tenor "
                \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = #"Ten "
                        \context Voice = viola \clef alto \tenorMusic
                >>

                \context Staff = cello <<
                \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Bass "
                \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = #"Bas "
                        \context Voice = cello \clef alto \transpose c c' \bassMusic
                >>

                \set Score.skipBars = ##t
                \set Score.melismaBusyProperties = #'()
        >>
        \midi { }
        \layout { \context { \Staff \consists Ambitus_engraver } }
}
\paper {
        #(set-paper-size "letter")
}

Violins.ly and celloBass.ly are identical except the clefs and octaves.

I'll send along an entire hymn as soon as the family gatherings and other obligations are done this week.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
Sounds good. I look forward to seeing them. :)
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

ski_phreak
Wow.  I'm finally back.

Besides summer/family/vacation distractions, I used your template to typeset my latest hymns.  I like the template, even though it I had to reset some of my thinking.

If there's a way to email these directly to you (while I research copyright) stuff, I'd love to.  Email me off-forum.  All 3 hymns (117 189 and 191 in the 1985 hymnbook) have "downloadable for non-commercial home and church use..." but I'm still checking.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
Welcome back!

I'm glad the template is turning out to be of use. I'll send you an email and you can reply.

Thanks!
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
In reply to this post by ski_phreak
To help you along with the copyright research, here's some information that could help:

'Come unto Jesus' is no. 284 (p. 281) in Deseret Sunday School Songs, 1909. That version is public domain for sure.

'Behold the Great Redeemer Die' is no. 129 in Songs of Zion, 1908. This version is also public domain for sure.

As for 'O Thou, before the World Began', I know the lyrics are public domain. I'm not so sure about the tune, yet. The composer was LDS—so unlike the lyrics, we can probably narrow our search down to LDS publications. I found the lyrics in The hymnal revised and enlarged, 1892 (not an LDS source, but I think the lyrics are pretty much the same; there are other versions with differences, though).

Since there's no copyright notice, my guess is that the church doesn't know of any existing copyright on Asper's tune, 'Noall', which might mean that it is public domain (and it's possible that the copyright wasn't renewed, although if it was published before 1923, then it's public domain anyway). But, that's just my hypothesis—it's not definite. Considering how Frank W. Asper lived from 1892–1973, there's a high likelihood that it's not public domain. The earliest publication of the music that I found was in Latter-day Saint Hymns, 1927 (no. 305). The parts are mostly written the same, but there are a few differences.

Anyway, our only hope might be that the copyright on Latter-day Saint Hymns, 1927 had not been renewed. If you know how to find out, and have the resources, that would be awesome. That would means loads of hymns are public domain that otherwise wouldn't be.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Guess what?

The 1927 LDS hymnal did not have its copyright renewed. Therefore, both the text and music of 'O Thou, before the World Began' used in it are public domain. It looks close enough to the 1985 version that you shouldn't have a problem using that one. The only differences I see are the old one is in the key of E and some of the bass notes of the old one are an octave lower.

I hope this helps!
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

joe malasky
In reply to this post by Mike F. (ski_phreak)
I am looking for bass clef hymns for the cello.  Any chance you have them?
joe.malasky@polylinks.net
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
There might be one or two on HymnWiki, but I wouldn't count on it. If you want the base clef separate, you can use the LilyPond source to make your own stuff from what we have.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

demaetuesday
In reply to this post by Mike F. (ski_phreak)
Hi Shule, Mike F., and everyone,

My name is Evan; first of all, I think this is a great site, and I very much appreciate the work that has gone into it.

Shule, I wanted to ask for your assistance, so here I've written a brief introduction. I'm currently pursuing a degree in Computer Science at a university; I'm also an organist and organ enthusiast. I'm planning to begin a research project that involves producing an algorithm to automatically generate organ fingering; there has been some work done in the area of automatic generation of piano/keyboard fingerings in general, but there have been some limitations such as not including finger substitution. Since fingering is such an integral part of legato organ playing and techniques such as crossing over and substitution are central to this fingering, the idea of automatic generation legato organ fingering is very interesting to me and has led me to want to pursue some work on it.

Since most sheet music that we use in practice is found in hard copies or in raster or vector image formats, none of which immediately lends itself to programatic analysis of the music, a practical consideration for this research project is finding a suitable music format for input to the algorithm.

I have considered that the LilyPond format is perhaps an ideal format for this project, since it may come the closest to being a standard machine-readable music format that is non-proprietary.

Although I am interested in using any organ music as input and will likely use many very simplified input samples, I also am interested in using as many hymns as possible from the 1985 edition of Hymns of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because of the practicality of their use to many organists. These are of course available in PDF format, but as far as I know they are not widely available in LilyPond format. (The LilyPond versions from the older edition of the hymnal are wonderful to have available, but since nowadays the 1985 edition is used predominantly, I was seeking to find the newer versions.)

Because of this, I was very interested when I saw Mike F.'s post about wanting to contribute hymns in LilyPond format, because it sounds like he may have a lot from the 1985 edition. Of course, I am also sensitive to the copyright considerations, and I would essentially be using the music in the same manner as is granted normally for most of the hymns—for personal, noncommercial use, the difference being simply that I am performing some analysis on it. If any of this research were ever published, I would not use that music but rather public domain music or music that I produced.

Since I would like to contact Mike F. to ask about his LilyPond versions but I don't have any method to do so (and since, reading this thread, it appears that you have had contact with him), I was wondering, Shule, if you could contact him and ask him if he would be willing to email me, or, alternatively, ask him if he would mind if you gave me his email address? Please feel free to forward this post to him as a method of introduction. Is there any way using this site to send an off-forum message so that I can give you my email address?

Thanks so much for your assistance, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best,
Evan
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
Evan,

Awesome.

You can email him via this link, I believe:
http://hymnwiki.30302.n2.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=284268

I just copied that from his picture above. One of his posts is from a registered account. You can email registered users. His earlier posts weren't from a registered account.

That's great to hear that you're studying computer science and that you're into organ music. Music and computers go well together, I think.

I'm actually making a text editor that is usable with LilyPond (to launch the compiler, PDF viewer and midi player). I plan to add syntax highlighting soon. It uses UTF-8 encoding by default. It's written in Python 3.4 with Tkinter for the GUI module. There is currently a problem with some Unicode characters in Tkinter (outside of a certain range), such as double sharps, however, but I have a workaround planned. The workaround will make it so you can use the characters, but you won't actually see them in the editor (just representation codes for them), though you would still see them in the compiled output, of course, and you could copy and paste them normally, and they would save normally. Most Unicode characters you're likely to use will work fine, as is, though. I personally think they will fix this in Tkinter, but I'm not sure how long that will take.

That sounds like a great project you're working on with the fingering.

LilyPond is a decent choice. Have you looked into what LilyPond currently supports in this regard already? I don't know, to be honest. But I am curious. Is organ fingering just like piano fingering?

Mark (that's my real first name)
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
In reply to this post by demaetuesday
Do you need a certain number of hymns, or specific ones, or just as many as possible?
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
In reply to this post by demaetuesday
You might be able to get permission from the Church to use the Hymns for your purposes beyond personal use (at least the ones the Church is authorized to give you license to use). I don't know if you want to try that, though.
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

demaetuesday
In reply to this post by Shule
Thanks a ton, Mark; I'll try using that link to email him. I agree; I really love the topic of applying computer science to music. That sounds like a really neat project that you have going with the text editor, and I think that any work being done to further the widespread use and ease of use of LilyPond is awesome. Speaking of text editors for LilyPond, I was wondering—I assume that you've also used Frescobaldi; if you have, what has your experience been with it? It looks great, and I've tried it a little bit, but I haven't yet gotten around to using it very much.

As far as typeset organ fingering notation, the same symbols can be used as for piano, with the numbers 1 through 5 for the fingers. For pedaling, usually a symbol like a caret or circumflex is used for toe and a small circle is used for heel, with the height positioning of the symbol used to indicate right foot or left foot. LilyPond may or may not have support for this, but I suspect it might, and if not I imagine some workaround could be arranged. In any case, though, output notation is actually not as much of a concern at the moment, because I'm mainly interested in inputing music using a standard format and implementing an algorithm to generate fingering, which could be represented in any output format, such as a simple text file, although that would certainly be less convenient to use for playing. Being able to print the generated fingering neatly on the score would be a nice touch, but that would be the frosting on the cake later on.

Assuming use of LilyPond format, I've found Abjad (http://www.projectabjad.org/) and am looking into using this to read the input music and create a model so that it can be analyzed, although this is something that I need to explore further.

I don't require any specific set of hymns, but I just thought it would be nice to use some familiar hymn arrangements from that collection to test the algorithm. I guess the good news is that I'm not really in a rush, because it will be quite a while before I get to the point where I will be using the hymns as input. Lol : ) I'm just barely starting out, but I'm excited about the project.

Best,
Evan
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Re: I'd like to contribute Lilypond source/pdfs of recent LDS hymnbooks

Shule
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Hey, it is safe to assume that you use Python, because of your interest in Abjad?

Unfortunately, I had never heard of Frescobaldi before, to my knowledge. I've been using LilyPond since about 2007, or maybe a little before. Back when I was really concerned about getting visual output, I couldn't find a LilyPond IDE that I preferred that both handled it and that I could get running well on my system (which granted, wasn't the fastest). So, I ended up just using SciTE, which had no defaults for LilyPond, but I made it so I could use it to launch programs to compile, load and play the music. I didn't bother with syntax highlighting. That's what I used until several weeks ago, actually. Occasionally, I looked at IDEs for LilyPond. However, none of them caught my interest much. Frescobaldi, however, looks pretty awesome. It's nice, from what I see. They actually have a hymn choir template, eh? That's totally awesome, and quite unexpected.

As for my text editor with LilyPond functionality, LilyPond isn't the major focus of the editor, but it's designed to support it (more than SciTE did, for sure). It doesn't load the PDF and MIDI in the editor itself like Frescobaldi seems to. It just launches external programs of your choice, and launches a command-line where it compiles. However, it's important to realize that my editor only uses UTF-8. So, you don't have to worry about it becoming something besides Unicode on accident, as happens in some other editors (which can be a problem if you're using special characters). It also has a vast array of methods for inputting special characters, as well as frequently used code that you don't want to have on your clipboard all the time (as many snippets of code as you want, actually), or that you want to save for an indefinite period. You can also make custom key sequences to run functions/methods (even with parameters) or insert characters. Since you choose the key sequence, hopefully it will be a memorable way to enter the characters/code. There's a shortcut to make selected text use title casing. I don't just mean the first letter of every word is capitalized, but I mean the capitalization is in the format often used in titles, where prepositions and such are lowercase unless they're at the beginning or end of the title. It does have tabs, much as Frescobaldi does.

Anyway, Python programming is actually a bigger focus with the editor so far than LilyPond, although I've been thinking of ways to make it more useful with LilyPond and such. Really, though, I'm just wanting to make an awesome text editor that I can do pretty much everything I want in. (Including email, web design, run a web server, basic word processing, data entry, hypertext fiction, e-book reading/writing, random name generation, features to help format txt books for Kindle Direct Publishing, journal-writing, etc. so long as it doesn't slow it down too much). Yes, I know a lot of people would think a text editor for programming that also has word processing features is a really strange idea, but I don't mind, so long as I like it and know it works (don't worry—it still looks just like a text editor should). I can hide the word processing features from prying eyes if I want to. Having it be able to start and stop a webserver (it can already do that) is pretty strange, too, but it's useful for web design, and it doesn't hurt execution speed.

Anyway, I better stop going on about it. It's fun to talk about stuff I'm programming that I'm excited about.

Have you heard of MusicXML? I don't know what you or I would think of it, but XML is supposed to be a format to help bring a file to other formats.